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Botox

More food for thought.

After paralysis, Palsy... (in this case botox) facial muscles have a tendency to become hypertonic meaning they tend to over act, contracting when they should be at rest. Typical signs are a deepening of creases, squinting eyes etc. Unlike lower body skeletal muscles, facial muscles lack spindles (spindles sense when a muscle is contracted, and the appropate nerve can send the signal to relax) Without these spindles there is no awareness of the contraction, and the muscles remain in a state of slight contraction.

A muscle that cannot fully relax also cannot fully contract, so the range of motion becomes limited. Another downside to this is that you may inadvertently call on inappropriate muscles to do the work of the paralyzed muscle which may cause unnatural expressions that could even remain after nerve function returns.

I have seen those who have had Botox injected into the corrugators over and over again, even after the botox had worn off, when raising their brows only the outer area of the brow would raise but the inner area (corrugator) remained virtually still, giving a look that Jack Nicholson is know for.Thank God this isn't typical but luckily for those who have experienced this… facial muscle can be retrained.

Scowl lines Jul 5, 2001   

Hi,

Has anyone who uses their forehead muscles very expressively during speech found the forehead exercises useful to erase lines in this area, especially scowl lines. I'm finding this a very stubborn area as although immediately post exercises the scowl lines are improved they revert back to their usual state almost immediately I begin to make facial expressions again. I'm beginning to be tempted by the thought of getting Botox injections in this area as I think maybe as long as I continue to use my forehead muscles expressively then the lines will remain. Is it actually possible to build the muscle enough to counteract lines caused by repetitive facial expressions? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Rah
IP: 62.252.224.5

Hi Rah...

yes it is.  that is one area I had great success in!  I did not have a lot of lines there to begin with, but ones I had were definite....no more.   I was lucky not to have deep lines there.  There are no noticeable lines in my forehead at this writing.  Before you consider Botox do a lot of research and read all the info (for and against)...there is not a lot of info against, so trust people who have had the injections to inform you.  Botox will deaden the muscle....in time I think this will cause the muscles to atrophy....Botox is only good for apprx 3 mos at best.  I know many people who have rcvd these injections, some did not even last 3 mos..and some did not obliterate all the lines that they were expecting it to.   Botox is the most poisonous toxin in existence, from all reports.  If you decide to
try this, please find a good Derm. Ctr....and hopefully see and speak with some individuals who have rcvd the injections.  but give flexing a good, dedicated attempt first. 

Jean

Thanks Jean,

I will definately give the exercises a good go before I consider Botox, maybe I'm just being a little impatient because I've had such good results from FlexEffect generally and this area is a stubborn one for me. I have found some useful tips in the Workshop, so I'll persevere a while longer!  

Rah.

Hi Rah

The frown lines are very stubborn. And depending upon how deep they are will depend on how much success you'll have in alleviating them.  Check out Tori's picture on the Before and After page. You should be able to reduce them but if they're extremely deep, you may not be able to eliminate them. Botox will work; however, I have read numerous complaints from people who've had Botox of this area and then had drooping brows. Check out this web site before you Botox.....you might just change your mind. http://www.faceforum.com/cgi-local/index.cgi

This is a cosmetic facial surgery discussion board. You will hear positive as well as negative comments from people using Botox. It will definitely give you a very balanced view concerning its use.

I always recommend that flexers do the exercises for at least 9 months to the effected area. By that time you should be seeing some definite changes for the better. If it is still not alleviated to your satisfaction, then you may want to try Botox. Remember, Botox does NOT actually eliminate the lines. It masks them by paralyzing the muscles. The apparent elimination of the line comes from interstitial swelling. When Botox wears off, the lines return.

Good luck,

Jason

Jowls... Jun 24, 2001 

Since I'll be 50 in a couple of months, I was wondering if plastic surgery would be best on eliminating my jowls and saggy underchin.  The rest of my face is in really good shape and I have virtually no wrinkles.  (My doctor told me I'm what they call a "good 49.") When I was younger, I had what they call "squirrel cheeks." Now that I'm no longer what they call a "spring chicken," the squirrel in my cheeks have given way to a sagging turkey wannabe. I'm wondering, is this hopeless
genetics (my mother had jowls and so do my sisters) and should I opt for the surgery? I lost over 20 pounds since January, and am starting to get my figure back (except, like I said before, the sagging breasts)and I'd like my face to look 30-something, not 50. Is surgery the best alternative, and if so, does anyone know what it entails, the pain, recovery, cost, etc.? Any response is greatly appreciated!  Thanks!

Tess
IP: 63.48.176.237

Hi Tess

It all depends on TIME VS MONEY. If you have advanced atrophy and sag, you may want to consider PS and it's cost.  The exercises may help reverse a good part of the advanced sag but not to the degree you might like within the time frame you would also like.  Also with the wt loss and with your age, you may notice your body doesn't "shrink wrap" as well. This is part of the normal aging process. Resistance training the entire body will help at any age but it takes consistency and dedication.

I think average cost for a face lift, which includes the neck, but not the brow, is around $7,000-$8,000. The initial recovery period is around four to six weeks; however, facial numbness and soreness, may last for months. If you are seriously considering any plastic surgery, prepare yourself mentally and physically for the event. Read everything you can find on the procedure and TALK to as many people as you can.   Visit:  http://www.faceforum.com/cgi-local/index.cgi  

You'll be able to talk to many people who've had the procedure done and can tell you their experiences. Also be REALISTIC when you have plastic surgery. Many people think they're going to come out looking as good as Cher, who has probably spent literally millions on her face and body. You won't. Unless you have thousands of dollars to burn, some of the same problems will
remain. You WILL (if you've chosen the right PS) look better, but not perfect. Good luck in your search!

Jason

Plastic Surgery worked best for me Jun 7, 2001 

Hey everyone,

I just want to say, that I have had a double chin since I was 16. I'm 26 now and after I got plastic surgery done on me 3 months ago, I've never looked better. It totally changed my look, I used to look fat, and, when I look in the mirror, I cant keep my eyes of it. When I used to look in the mirror, I tried keeping my chin up, which was a real self esteem drainer. It was a quick and painless procedure, just stick stick stick and boom, I was done, It was better than those tongue exercises I was doing, it gotten to the point where it was really annoying. I tried everything from tightening my jaw, keeping my head up, poking my fingers into my chin, endlessly resulting for it to droop back. But now, I dont have that problem anymore. Anyway, It's the wave of the future, Plastic Surgery has become more of an easier door for those who get discouraged. It'll cost you less money to get a chin tuck then it will spending countless amounts of money on Mama's remedy ;)Later guys,

Anthony
IP: 63.46.55.225

Hi Anthony

Perfect example Anthony of what we've been saying on the board from day one. If you're a follower of the board, you'll see where facial exercises will NOT change genetics which, since you had a
double chin at sixteen, could not have been due to muscle atrophy. Facial exercises will NOT change the genetic shape you were given with. It WILL prevent and reverse sag. That's what
this is ALL about. FlexEffect is not ANTI-PLASTIC SURGERY. Plastic surgery is very appropriate in many circumstances. However, it is not the only alternative out there for people
trying to prevent muscle atrophy and sag.

We're happy that you feel so good about your new look. Best then to maintain it by working out. ;-)

Jason

Okay to start FlexEffect? May 26, 2001     

i had my upper and lower eyes and full face co2 laser done on
3/2/2001. ok to start the program??
Darl
IP: 216.192.202.4

Hi Darl

That depends......How many passes did the PS do? If he did only two passes probably yes since you're about 3 months post op, most of the redness should pretty well be gone. If he did more than
that, I would probably wait still. The reason being, with more passes of a CO2 laser, you're invading the deeper layers of the skin, which in turn will make your skin exceptionally fragile for approximately 6 months. You need to give your skin time to reform collagen, a nice bonus from having CO2 laser surgery done. As always, too, check with your physician. If he is a poo pooer of
facial exercises, then ask him when can you start having full, complete facials done post laser. When he says okay to that, then you can begin doing facial exercises again.

Jason

What causes lines/wrinkles   May 4, 2001  

Do habitual muscle patterns or habits cause some of our lines & wrinkles?  Im thinking, for instance, of the lines some get across their foreheads, or the vertical ones between the eyes. Ive read if you place tape on those lines, you will become aware what muscle pattern you're unconsciously using. Therefore the tape helps you to consciously become aware of the habit and train yourself to stop the undesirable pattern and eventually the lines improve or go away.  Isn't that the reason why botox
is used?  Although with botox, it stops you from using the muscle temporarily, but when it wears off the wrinkle returns because you go back to using the muscle with the same unconscious habit.

Ive also read to the contrary that using facial muscles continually will not cause wrinkles or lines.  As proof, they said to examine your wrist or the inside of your elbow which are contracted continually during the course of a day.  They are not wrinkled excessively.  Although as I thought about it, we do use resistance to pick up or lift things and maybe this is why they're not wrinkled. ????

Terri
IP: 199.183.93.155

Hi Terri

The reason the areas of the arms (the under side) you mentioned do not show much wrinkling is because they are less exposed to the sun, thus less skin damage. The skin of the arms are also a
little different in composition than the skin of the face as well.

Movement in and of itself does not cause wrinkles, but once repeated insults to the skin have accumulated then movement will certainly cause the damage skin to fold causing lines and furrows.

Botox works by paralyzing the muscle, blocking nerve conduction, thus causing the skin at the effected site to completely relax. The line or wrinkle has not gone away. Once Botox wears off, they
return as they were before. I suspect that it has a lot to do with fluid retention in the area of the injection. If you've ever seen stroke victims, you'll notice the accumulated edema in the effected extremeties. This is because the muscles can no longer move stimulating the blood vessels to push fluid through the effected extremety as effectively. Blood and fluid then have tendency to accumlate causing a plumper appearance, which is effective at pushing out the lines, particularly if the stroke
affects either side of the face.

Jason

To Jason Re: Peels Apr 27, 2001   

Jason,

I'm considering getting some peels--crystal peels, to be exact. I had one already and it didn't seem to do much except make my skin look really "clean." I'm considering having a series of them, but now I wonder if I might need something a bit heavier-hitting. What type of peels did you have and what were your results? I'm getting new wrinkles around my mouth right now and have had some on my forehead and around my eyes for a while now. I'd really LOVE to rid myself of these pesky fellows. Would do a lot for my self-esteem at this point. Also: Will exercising my mouth area help alleviate the new wrinkles that are forming there? I think it's because it's so poofy there now (little poof bags have formed as my face began to loosen and sag a bit in the past year or so). When I run, I can really see how loose and saggy that area is. It actually bounces when I run. I think that the loose skin is more prone to wrinkle. Is this so? If I tighten the area, will the lines decrease as well? (I'm also beginning to use CPs, so I'm hoping they will kick in and help out topically.) What think? Is there still hope for me, or should I just make friends with these "lovely" new "character" lines??

Lynne
IP: 205.188.192.166

Hi Lynn

Definitely, there's hope. Micro-dermabrasion is what you're talking about I believe, correct me if I'm wrong. What I understand is that it takes a minimum of about 5 peels to really see results from them.  I had a series of micro peels done using glycolic acid. They were somewhat beneficial I felt. Really whats helped has been the long term use of AHAs and Retin A here at home. I really don't have any lines on my face to speak of except for some light naso-labial lines.  And yes, the exercises would help tighten up the mouth area and I would recommend them for the problem you're having.

Jason.

Hi again Lynne,

I think the procedure you're referring to is called Diamond Dermabrasion which uses Diamond-shaped crystals.  I was counseled to have that treatment after skin analysis by a prestigious
hospital in our area.  I decided against it, Im going to keep exercising instead (I recently started) and use the topical products Jason suggested.  I was told the procedure is done in 7 treatments--with periodic treatments thereafter.  If you pay for the treatments in total, they deduct one treatment off the price.I asked my plastic surgeon if he would recommend it for me (he's with a different hospital) and he said he wasn't impressed with the results after using his wife as a test subject, so he sent the equipment back. However, his opinion may be biased because he recommend Co2 Laser which is twice as expensive!
Didn't u ask about acupuncture in a previous?  Did you decide against it?

Terri

Hi Terry,

I haven't decided against the acupuncture, I'm actually planning to go forward with both plans. I've already had one crystal peel. I've decided now to have a series of them. They're basically a semi-strong facial/exfoliation, nothing like the heavy skin peels using chemicals or lasers, etc. And since I've already had one, I know that they won't harm my skin. My thinking is that I will have the series of peels to sort of "jumpstart" my skin for its renewal process. I've also just begun using the
copper peptide products. I'm hoping that by exfoliating my skin a few times in rapid succession, I can get the skin down to a lower level and get the products to penetrate a bit deeper, repairing my skin at a deeper level. I've noticed that something is definitely going on with the lines under my eyes right now. One line under each eye is either getting better or getting worse, and I can't tell which. They've turned red, so I'm thinking that there is blood there and the lines are either more faint or
growing longer. I simply can't remember what they looked like exactly a few days ago!! (I drew a picture of what they looked like yesterday so that I'll be able to tell if the changes are for better or for worse in the future.) On a good note, though: The exercises have definitely corrected one minor thing. I had a slightly droopy upper lid and after exercising for about a week or so now, it's back to normal.

Lynne

Hi Lynne

Love your name, same as my daughter's without the e!

I was told you could wear makeup right after the peel, is that so?How many are you having?   Did you have to buy a special line of facial products with the peel?  I think the one the hosp. recommended were called BioMedic.  I didn't realize you'd have redness at all.

You seem to be having quick results with the exercises.  I hope I begin to see some around the lower mouth area--it seemed like this just cropped up in the past few months (wrinkles).  My lower
lids are coming along nicely, but the wrinkles on the inner corners are a bummer. 

How do you like the CP product?  Which one(s) are u using? I plan on ordering some this mo.

Terri

Hi Terri:

Yes, the crystal peel is very, very light--no down time at all. You can wear makeup right away. So far, I like the CPs, but I'm also going to kick it up a bit and go with some Retin A as well. I just got a sample to try and so far, no irritation. Please tell me more about your lower lids... What was your problem and what are you seeing now? Also, what is your undereye routine??

Lynne

Who is right / who is wrong? Apr 26, 2001    

I have checked out other websites and have now come across two that say facial exercise will cause more wrinkles to develop.  It is very confusing out there.  I do worry when I have to pull on my skin to do the exercises.  And it is pretty hard not to pull the skin when doing them.  I am just a beginner and am sure I will relax some when I start seeing results.  And should we be doing them everyday.  When you work the muscles of the body you are supposed to give them a rest day.  Does that not apply to the face as well.  I had a blepharaplasy done about six years ago and my right lower lid droops just slightly.  I am worried about doing the lower lid exercise that is on the video for fear
of it making it worse.  I feel like I am pulling the skin too much, and I do not really feel any muscle working while I am doing it.  I think I am doing it properly but maybe not.  Sorry for the long message.

Bev
IP: 149.99.97.138

Hi Bev

ok this is my theory based on what people have said, and seeing my situation, these exercises especially around the eyes decrease puffiness, you may see an increase in the wrinkles only because the skin that was puffy can now be deflated leaving a little extra skin , like a bleph can cause people to say they see more wrinkles, i do have faith that the skin will tighten up sort of like when  you lose weight and it takes time to have the skin to adjust to the new you, again ireally believe this is what happens in alot of situations, i dont have severe wrinkles and im confident it will tighten, but if you
have a lot of loos skin and deep wrinkles, know that a bleph would cause the exact same problem, its not the exercise, its the reducing of puffiness from the exercise or bleph or loosing weight. Ps guys i stoped the retin a for a week and my skin is back to normal, so i need to find out if maybe  copper peps and aha would be my answer, remember i only have fine lines not really noticable, so do you think the cp and aha could make a difference without the sheding irritation and wrinkled apperaence that retin a gives me.

Kevin

Hi Kevin

I've been reading your posts and worries and sympathize. Its true that flexing does manipulate some skin and it works more speedily on persons with good skin elasticity such as is my case, thus the
reason why Deb and all the trainers strongly recommend good skin care in conjunction with the exercises. Dr. Pickart answered your post and says Kinerase and copper peptides also work well
together. I do hope you're seeing a dermatologist since you've got such sensitive skin. AHA's are just as irritating if not more so on the eyelids so really think twice about that.  Like most others who
responded on this board, skincare is such a trial and error endeavor. Its been so for me, so do your research, use the search engines on the internet and read up as much as you can about the products that interest you. Jason and Olympia also encourage looking up Medline to look for scientific research backing up skin care products.
   
As a a final adjunct,  for those with sensitive skin, I've discovered a terrific AHA called "Refinity" which is lactic acid based and has strontium nitrate which greatly lessens the irritation. A little pricey but well worth it.I can't believe I tolerated this 15% AHA in conjunction with Renova .025% cream!
Zapped my blackheads in a couple of days.(alternating it). And Kevin, do not try this product on your eyelids...better to see your Dermatologist first! Good luck to all!

Teresa

Hi Teresa

hey thanks for the reply, still lost, i dont think my skin under my eyes is that sensitive comparably speaking, ive talked to alot of people who have the same reaction to retin a, and by the way i tried, an aha and it was not even close to irritating my skin the way retin a has. So again my question is does copper peps by them self cause sheding and kill the top layer of skin promoting new layers to heal the old skin? i know this is how retin a works, does copper peps do the same thing, and if not   how can it be effective in actually getting rid of wrinkles you already have? AGAIN im trying to
figure out how copper peps and kinerase do any thing more than just really hydrate the skin helping prevent new wrinkles, but not actually getting rid of wrinkles you already have the way retin a does, could any one please answer.

Kevin

Hi Kevin

First off, I would recommend that under Training Workshop you read some of the posts under EYES. You shouldn't just be pulling on the skin when you do the exercises. If you were, I would
suspect that some damage could occur. But when you're working the muscle, you're increasing the blood flow to the area. I've been doing the exercises over two years and haven't put a single line
on my face.  Additionally, the massage is also excellent for challenging the skin. Most of the massage techniques Deb describes are actually done in Spas. A friend of mine in cosmetology was quite impressed with her system of massage and plans to incorporate it into the facials program.

Regardless, you can get some excellent tips for doing lower lid lift under the afore mentioned site.

PS...

All the info out there seems to indicate that CP and AHAs do help. If Retin A is too strong, I would certainly investigate them. Just remember to wear a good sun block, especially when using AHAs.

Jason

Resistance Training after blephroplasty. 14-Apr 14, 2001     

Hi! I found your site by accident while searching for an answer to my unusual lower eye bag problem.  Last May I had upper & lower blephroplasty.  After the swelling left, I still had lower
bags.  The doc (board certified) performed a second surgery to remove more excess skin (my problem is heriditary--to much skin, not fat).  It didn't help.  He then did a third and I still have
bags!!!  He says Im an enigma to him, this has never happened to any of his patients before.  He even took a stitch in the muscle to tighten it up.  He pretty much dismissed me as a patient unless I am willing to try CO2 laser surgery, but he did give me any guarantees. The downtime & possibility of risking skin color differences makes me hesistant to go this route, and I'd like to try flexing.  However, I'm concerned that the stitched muscle might loosen and make matters worse.  What is your opinion?

I think you're right about your advise to Kevin to perform cheek lifting exercises to help the lower lid area. Im not speaking from experience, but your advise reminded me of my first consulatation with a non-certified doctor who recommended I have a mid-face cheek lift along with the upper/lower blephroplasty.  She said my bags wouldn't be gone unless I had all three performed.  She was probably right, although my plastic surgeon still insists that I didn't need the cheek lift. 

If you think resistance training will help correct my problem and not loosen that stitched muscle, I'd like to give flexing a try.  I don't own the video. I rented it at the time I had surgery, but was unable to perform the exercise.  I forgot most of them, but plan on purchasing the book next mo. for my 51st birthday.  I know your supposed to do all the exercises, but to get me started could you share all the exercises for the parenthesis around the lower mouth.  To the best of my recollection I've been trying to do the bottom furrow, but I must be doing it wrong because it looks worse. Can you explain it again? Also, would it be counter-productive to exercise the lower furrow in a similar manner as the top furrow exercise where you would lock on to that bottom furrow and pull your
jaw/chin area downward?

One more question.  When do you have time to do all these exercise to stave off aging? We should be exercising our faces, bodies, pelvic muscle (Kegels) and even our eyes to prevent the need for reading glasses.  It seems so overwhelmingly time consuming and it still doesn't prevent our hair from thinning, us ladies growing hair on our upper lips & chins, the bulges of vericose veins etc, etc, etc!!!!!

Thanx,
Terri
IP: 216.67.36.175

Hi Terri: 

I loved your post! especially the last paragraph! lol.  I don't think we are going to stave off ageing totally l00%...maybe not even 50%...but all this flexing etc., will enhance and improve upon what Mother Nature and Father Time have left us to work with!  Doing something constructive in itself is
a deterrent to 'ageing'...maybe not physically but definitely emotionally.  Our brain, as a rule, barring disease, doesn't 'age' like the rest of us!  lol.  All this effort and exercising is keeping it active..it's all in the attitude anyway.  If you think you can do something very constructive, then chances are you can!   Foregoing all of that, this program works!  Not by 'wishful thinking' and not by simply your
imagination..and not by approval of others.  It really works wonderfully, as you get out of it exactly what you are willing to put into it.  I love it!  you will too.  I am rapidly approaching the 59 mark and can honestly say I feel better about my appearance than I did at 57.

Jean

Hi Terrie

You're right....where do ya find the time!!! Ya have to make it. We cannot stop aging, but we can slow its effects on our bodies.  The stitched muscle can be exercised once it has fully healed.
Allow at least six weeks. However, since your bags are genetic, I'm not sure just how much success you'll obtain with exercise. The only way to find out is to go for it. I've not heard of CO2 laser being effective in removing lower eye bags UNLESS it is purely loose skin and NOT muscle. Laser will tighten the skin 20-30% depending on how deep/number of passes the PS makes.

Yes, building up the cheek muscles or having cheek implants may reverse the baggy look under the eye. The less drastic means would be performing the exercises for a minimum of six months to see what you can accomplish.

The exercise that you mentioned is called Bottom Furrow. It is only one of several exercises that work the lower face. Ideally, you would want to use a combination of several of the exercises
to work the area.

Target Area: Corner of mouth down to jaw line.

Exercise: Contract the muscle by drawing the corners of the mouth down as in a sad face and hold. At the same time, place butt of palms at corners of mouth (on jaw line) and push up.

Hold for a count of 6. Repeat 10 times.

Jason

Botox and frown area  Apr 10, 2001     

i have read some good things about botox injections for the frown area.  to relax the muscle in that area so that the other muscles around the area can get built up.  but when i was going thru some of the posts on flexeffect, there was one lady that had a bad side effect to the injections. i emailed dr bermant but he has not responded yet.   can any one give some adivice on this?? please help...

joanne   

Hi Joanne

I just recently saw someone who had that done and the area looked so weak and droopy to me. I'd stay away from it. Plus, botox is a poison....isn't it? Very toxic. Doesn't sound smart to me.

Lynne
IP: 205.188.197.172

Hi JoAnne

I met someone this weekend that had the botox injections recently in this area and, although, I had never seen her before, it certainly did NOT look like it helped. The frown lines were still very obvious and deep.

Renee
208.247.148.9

Hi Everyone,

thanks for those who responded. i didnt feel comfortable with this procedure, so i will keep on flexing!!!

joanne

Hyper-pigmentation   Apr 1, 2001    

Hi!

I had a few chemical peels for sun damaged skin.  The effect was great on my face but my jaws and neck have blotchy pigmentation where the doctor did not get it evenly.   These were deep peels so the neck and jaws were not as aggressively worked.   Does anyone else have a similar problem with a remedy?  Even if I don't go out into the sun and wear a hat, the rays still seem to bring out the pigmentation even more in the summer.

Thanks,
Mousehouse
IP: 209.240.220.201

Hi Mousehouse

First of all, I would ask the Dr. who performed the procedure as to what he could do to correct the problem. Often times, a physcian will do whatever necessary to correct the problem without charge, especially if it was due to his own technique. In the short term, I do know there is corrective makeup made especially for this problem. Anyone else have a take on this?

Jason

Hi Mousehouse

treating this area with copper peptides seems to help a lot of people w/this dilema.  there are several makeups..i.e. Derma Blend that will assist in camaflauge.  Yes! go back to the Dr who performed the peels for you and get that recommendation.  Most will offer a no-charge option.

Jean

No lines just sag   Mar 15, 2001   

I have very few lines at 60 (still a Retin-A girl); the face is in pretty good shape.   But I'll tell you the other day I caught a glimpse of my profile and it is absolutly ugly.  From the front of the face I have extending from the chin all the way down the throat that turkey neck.  In profile I have the hanging
turkey throat plus jowls just under the jaw bone.These jowls cannot be seen from the front of the face.  Are there exercises that can remove this mess?  A plastic surgeon told me only a facelift would help and I don't have the 10 thou.

Pat
IP: 152.163.206.191

Pat,

You are a perfect candidate for FlexEffect. Since you do have some advanced sag, you are going to have to be dedicated and work hard, but you should be able to reverse most of that. I would
recommend that you start with the video. It will give you the basic exercises you'll need to get started. Once you master them, you can graduate to the book which includes additional exercises.
Look at Tori's before and after pictures. Her sag was quite advanced as well, but with hard work she was able to dramatically turn that around.

Be sure to take before pictures before you begin your training so you'll be able to judge just how far you progress over the next several months. Good luck and hope to have you on board.

Jason

Hi Pat

I am 58 and I have considerably less sag than I did when I started....so this is a very workable program!  even some of the lines have 'smoothed' over from the added build.  I had extreme
(to me) jowls...the left side of my face, I do not have any anymore!  rt side is catching up...a lot slower..which has been the case with me since square one.  But this program definitely helps with the sag and drape, despite your age range..I am extremely pleased and eternally grateful for the opportunity to be able to have this available to us. keep at it.  You WILL see results!

Jean

Botox Mar 14, 2001   

I am responding to someones question about sagging eyelids and brow from botox.   I have had this problem.  In the beginning I loved the Botox, but within the last 6 months I have noticied (basically) my forhead (eyelids) slipping and making me look old and I am only 38.  Fortunatley, I have only had the Botox 4 times with 6 month intervals.   The Botox is finally wearing off and my eyes are gradually coming back to normal.

Michelle
IP: 216.126.164.28

Michelle,

This can definitely be a problem with Botox especially when the forehead is done. Generally it is due to an over zealous application or when the sessions are given too close together. While Botox will temporarily erase lines it is not removing them so much as hiding them due to the blocking of nerve impulses to the muscles beneath. This causes the damaged skin over the muscle to relax reducing the appearance. Botox will not relax deep wrinkles however.

Just like someone who has suffered a stroke, when Botox blocks the nerve impulses too much, sag occurs. Often times for about the first week or so, Botox users may notice more droop. After that period of time, some tone generally returns to the muscle. Fortunately, Botox does wear off. Ideally, if one is going to use Botox regularly, in my opinion I would be exercising the muscles for a period of three months, at least, to build the muscle back up before having a reapplication. Botox does cause the muscles to atrophy and that means SAG, exactly what we're all trying to avoid. LOL

Jason

Alternative to eyelid Surg? Feb 24, 2001    

I was wondering if FlexEffect is a good alternative to eyelid surgery.  I am 48 years old, and had upper and lower lids done when I was 40.   Now, I am noticing the bags under my eyes again, but DO NOT want to go through the surgery again.  My experience was not a good one, and you could hardly tell I had had anything done.  I still had slight bags...and had one of the best surgeons in Dallas perform the surgery.  My son is being married in July, and I desperagely want to look by best.  Other than the eye problem, I look very young for my age.  Could you tell me if my eyelids could benefit from this program? Thank you for your time.

Kathy Smith
IP: 4.34.192.210

Hi kathy

Yes, the eyelids could benefit very well from the exercises, especially if the bagginess is due to atrophy. If it is a genetic buildup of fat, the exercises will NOT give you the results you want. If you're not sure whether it's genetic or age related. Ask or observe close relatives. Also observe when you see the bags, more in the morning or are they constantly present. Does being properly hydrated seem to reduce them?

If they seem to change often according to time of day, hydration, your physical condition, they may be fluid and atrophy related. If they're pretty constant in their appearance it probably is fat
accumulation. This will give you an idea of what the problem is.

Jason

Damage from Botox Feb 21, 2001 

I am looking for people that have had botox injections that have caused ptosis of the brow and/or eye lid. Ptosis is when the eyelid sags.

Please respond if you have had this experience. I had botox for the lines between my brows nearly one year ago and I have sagging eyelids. I had beautiful eyes before the doctor ruined them. Now I look 10 years older than I am. Look forward to hearing from you all.
SuzyQ
IP: 158.252.223.93

Hi SuzyQ

my ptosis went away with massage and exercise of the area. It was very pronounced on the inside near the bridge of the nose. I could push it up with my fingers. very strange
Cathy
IP: 207.92.20.188

Re: Plastic Surg and Flexing to Loretta   Feb 16, 2001   

I have 3 or 4 friend who have had the surgery and love it.  I would really be interested in hearing your problems!  Can you condense it here?  I have thought about it and would like to get another
perspective.  Thanks.

Jae
IP: 38.29.80.175

Hi Jae

I had upper and lower blepharoplasty perfomed 4 1/2 years ago. Too much fat was removed and from a cosmetic standpoint the results are unacceptable. I have not been able to find a surgeon
that can "fix" this mistake. The major problem that I have is a chronic condition called dry eye syndrome. My eyes no longer completely close when I sleep. I experience constant discomfort,and sometimes pain, every waking moment. My eyes constantly feel like I have worn contacts too long and I not wearing contacts. I have permanent scars on my cornia resulting from abrasions caused by this condition and I have recurrent eye infections. When I wake in the morning my eyes are red and feel as though they have sand in them. My eyes are so sensitive to light that I can't turn the lights on early in the morning. Some days I have to wear 2 pair of sunglasses to protect my eyes from the blinding sun. I have an obstucted tear duct which will require surgery to correct. I have the on going expense of Dr. visits and eye medication and the constant frustration of having to constantly deal with this condition. I have been treated for the past 4 years, but at no time have my eyes been back to pre surgery comfort and there is no hope that they will ever be. I made a terrible mistake by having this surgery and evidently I will pay for it the rest of my life and the worst part is that I was not aware that this condition could result from the surgery. At one time there was a website called faceforum.com and there you could read about many horror stories resulting from blepharoplasty as well as other plastic surgery procedures. I can only guess why the site was removed!!!

Susan 
IP: 208.60.82.201

Hi Susan

WOW!  Makes facial exercise look better and better.  That is horrible, I am so sorry that you have had these problems!  Really motivates me to keep up the exercise and great care of my skin.  Thank you so much for sharing that, you never hear about the side
effects!
Jae

Botox  Jan 30,2001     

Does anyone have any thoughts, experience or information about using Botox injections for severe frown lines on the forehead? I understand it works great to relax the muscles, but I also understand the effects are temporary (3-6 months) and may in rare cases effect other muscles around the eyes causing the eyelids to drop or sag a bit.

Rick
IP: 205.188.198.164

Hi Rick. 

You are correct with all of your info. Consult a Dermatologist who specializes in Botox injections to get a consultation and evaluation of your particular needs. He/she will explain everything in detail and answer all your questions and concerns.  this is the best first step if you are considering

Jean

Hi Rick

I have a friend who has had her forehead and frown lines Botox'd. It is temporary but it does fix in place the muscles and reduce lines. My concern is that the effects down the road would lead to
accelerated sag. Check out post #914 on my thoughts about Botox. I may be wrong. It is somewhat puzzling to me that information regarding the long term effects of Botox muscle paralysis and
it's effect on sag related to muscle atrophy is virtually absent from the literature.

Jason

Q/Re: sag/smoking   Jan 14, 2001 00:13:54   

Jason:  I have a {skeptical} friend who has posed a couple qstns.  she is one of those "well it has worked well for you but it will never work for me"...trying to convince her it will.  Anyway, question:  If a person already has sag, will flexing aggravate it and make it worsen?  I have explained to her about acute sag or drape and possibly surgical procedure would be a thought; her concern now being it will make what she has now worse. (this is her big drawback in beginning).  She isn't worried about wrinkles worsening as she barely has them to start with.  Also, and this qstn is for me too:  if a person stops smoking, will the premature aging that was caused by the smoking improve upon stopping or have the damaging effects been done and not correctable w/o some cosmetic procedure?  I ask you this as I know you will give an honest, frank answer, even if it is one I don't want to hear. thx for response.

Jean
IP: 64.12.104.189

Jean,

If lines and wrinkles are already present, without some kind of intervention whether laser, chemical, etc, they're going to remain. Flexing will help to lessen the appearance of lines but it will not eliminate them completely (and isn't that what everyone wants?) But even laser will NOT remove ALL lines and wrinkles either, as some people have to their disappointment discovered.

As for sag, even at advanced stages, flexing WILL help just may not to the degree of the person's expectations. The WHOLE secret is starting BEFORE these problems appear. Once they have, there is a lot you can do to REDUCE them, but once there, you're into damage control, which is a little tougher than prevention.

Actually, exercising the face will work for everyone. But just like in the gym, you've GOT to find the routine and develop the technique to stimulate growth....you've got to tweak the program. I can't tell you how many people go into the gym and then quit after a short time saying "it doesn't work for me." When actually, it does. They haven't given it the time, dedication, and understanding that physical exercise requires. You hear the same kind of complaints from people who attempt dieting. We ALL can lose weight, whatever program you choose (some being better than others, just like forms of exercises). But you'll still hear people say, "I can't lose weight." Nonsense. Unless you have some kind of medical condition, which is rare in most cases, you CAN lose weight. Tweak the program and make it work, be dedicated, understand why you're doing it the way your chosen program says.

Anyway, got rather winded there, but I'm trying to give examples so everyone can see that failure on one person's part can have no bearing on another person's potential to use the same exercise or
diet and have complete success. Hope that answers your friend's questions.

Jason

Hi Jason! 

Thx for wonderful response.  My friend would definitely be in the 'prevention' stage...so I will print out your letter so she can see your reply.  I, however, am in the 'damage control' status..that is sort of 'good' for her information; not so wonderful for mine; however, since I have experienced wonderful improvements, and I do possess realistic expectations,  I should be alright! lol.  thx again; will pass it on....you may have a new flexer soon!

Jean

Plastic Surgery/flexing  Jan 11, 2001     

i am getting my eyes done (upper and lower) in 2 weeks. also having laser resurfacing on my face at the same time. now i plan on keeping my investment. how long should i wait to start flexing after surgery. don't ask me to ask the plastic surgeon because he does not believe in flexing as i do. (of course! he wants me back in the future).

Loretta
IP: 205.166.161.61 

Hi Loretta

There are a couple of dependent factors here. One, what kind of laser resurfacing are you choosing? If you're getting the CO2 laser resurfacing done, how many passes will the PS be doing. Feather light resurfacing may only be two passes, which means your redness will disappear a little more quickly (look at three months to be realistic). If he goes any deeper, it may take a good six months for the redness to heal. I would wait a good 60 to 90 days regardless before beginning any facial exercise post operatively. Then start in lightly with few counts less reps. The skin on your face is going to be very very thin for a good while and you'll find that if you begin too early that you might even tear the skin.....it's THAT fragile. After about 90 days you will have epithelialized enough that you should be able to restart, especially with a lighter laser resurfacing.  For the upper and lower blephs, I would again wait the same time period or more and I'll tell you why. Often times after cosmetic surgery, there is a "re-modeling" period, depending on what was done, and you don't
want to jeopardize that period of time while the body is "refiguring". This process can take up to six months. This "re-modeling" is especially true for implants, liposuction, breast reconstruction, etc. So for your eyes, I would probably wait at the very least 90 days and even 120-140 days would probably be even better. Certainly by this amount of time, the remaining fat to the lids will have had time to heal as well as any surgical scars (unless your PS is going to due lid surgery using laser only, which is being done more often, especially for upper lids).Remember if you've been doing your exercises all along, it will be easy for them to catch back up after you've been off a while.

Jason

Newbie  Dec 18,2000     


Hi....;-)...I just started doing the exercises from the   FlexEffect video a week ago. I had been doing Carol Maggios face exercises for the last few months, although not really consistently. I realize Im very new to the FlexEffect program and will need to do it longer to see results. Im 38 yrs old. I had Cymetra injections along the nasal-labial folds about a month ago. I was told I may need a second injection for the results I wanted. For the first couple weeks the results were amazing, now I wonder if it was because there was still some swelling. The last couple weeks the lines around my mouth have gotten worse. It appears they may be deeper than they were before the injections. Is it possible I could be making them worse by doing these exercises? Any I shouldn't be doing? I have a heavy feeling to the cheek area since starting the FlexEffect exercise tape and wonder if that could be contributing to the deeper lines around the mouth? Or does this mean Im on the road to some
improvement and I should just hang in there? Could you tell me any of the exercises I should do more of to decrease the lines. As of right now Im doin the exercises once a day each ten times. Thanks in advance!

Pam

IP: 209.240.221.104

Hi Pam,

The naso-labial folds are the most stubborn, along with the frown lines. I, too, have had this problem. I've been able to drastically reduce the fold itself. The lines remain faintly there. I had a fairly deep fold and didn't like the way it made my face look. The exercises definitely improved it. I've been
told by cosmetic surgeons that just about the best filler at this point is soft form for the naso-labial folds. (The best is actually liquid silicone--so the rumors are--but the dangers of this filler's side effects are a bit daunting, plus the fact that it cannot be used in the United States).

If you're more concerned about the line rather than the fold itself, facial exercising and a product such as Retin A, copper peptide, or other exfoliating/skin repair product will help to reduce it. It does take TIME, and patience is definitely required. But it may be far less hassle than cosmetic procedures
(much cheaper too).

Initially, the exercises may seem to make the fold worse. That's because the muscle hasn't built enough yet to plump out the fold, and the skin has sustained any of the benefits yet of having the
muscle worked. Keep at it. Depending on the severity of the fold, it may take quite a few months. But once you get to where you want to be, it takes little to maintain it.

Hope I've been of some help on your quest.

Jason

Re: Lower lid exercises  Oct. 13, 2000

I had blepharoplasty performed 4 years ago and it was the worst mistake I ever made.  I have dry eye syndrome and an unacceptable cosmetic result as a result of the surgery. Please think long and
hard before making the decision to have this done. Believe me, the side effects can be far worse than bags under your eyes. 

Susan

Question for Olympia   Oct 3, 2000

Hi Olympia
Hope you don't mind me asking but have you ever had plastic surgery, and how old are you. Do you look good just from doing the exercises, or have you had other procedures. Forgive me for being skeptical, but I'd like to know if its just the exercises that have kept you in good shape, and knowing your age also would help me decide.

Sheila

Hi Sheila:

I don't mind your asking at all....I've never had plastic surgery. I will be 40 in a few short months.  I started out with isometrics when I was in my early 30's and have been doing FlexEffect for the past few years.  It's THE only program that does what it says it does and a heck of a lot more! I'm a FlexEffect Addict!

I practice sunshading, wear an SPF of 30 every day , use the best cosmeceuticals out there (patented and proven only) do weight training 3 days on one day off and I walk very briskly for an hour every day, stick to whole unprocessed foods as much as I possibly can do it, pop my vitamins every day, drink tons of water, don't drink, don't smoke and do my FlexEffect Program at least 4 - 5 days a week at this point, and thank God every day for every single blessing I've got! 

That may be more info than you wanted to know....but that's pretty much it.  I'm not against plastic surgery at all, under the hands of a talented professional, they can do wonders. But, I firmly believe in the preventative approach...nip in the bud long before it can even happen or if it's going going - STOP IT before it's gone! 

I promise you from the bottom of my heart, this program is as amazing as it sounds, but the results you achieve and maintain are up to you, under your complete and utter control.   Your results will vary depending on the the extent of atrophy and photoaging, sag and drape....not so much the muscles but the skin.

I also believe, this should be a must do for pre and post operative plastic surgery patients.  Hope the medical community catches on soon.....or even better the general public...they'll not have to undergo more than one round of a face lift if they need one and if they use this to prevent any future atrophy from occurring. 

I'm proud I'm going to be 40 and looking like I'm 30...and apart from the genetics God has blessed me with...I promise you I owe the whole kit and kaboodle to our Deb and this program.  I'm flexing for life.....it's as important as the air I breath sincerely...hope I answered your questions and any doubts! 

Best of luck,
Olympia

Olympia

Thanks Olympia for your honest answer. You do look amazing for your age, and I can hardly believe that you haven't had plastic surgery. You are a great advertisement for flex effect. What I
can't understand though, is why you and Deb, it seems, aren't against plastic surgery. If you can achieve such great results with exercise, why should you ever think that plastic surgery could be an option?

Sheila

Hi Again Sheila:

The truth is, not all of us catch the atrophy in time. Some unfortunate individuals have accumulated so much skin drape and sag that they actually need to have that surgically tightened up.  Before they go under the knife, they should really get on the program to improve the muscle and skin, too get them on the right track. Once they have the surgery and are fully recovered, they need to keep going with their FlexEffect program to keep that tissue (muscles and skin) vital and strong and pumped! 

In addition, I happen to think that if we're not happy with our nose or cheeks, chest, or chin for example, we have the wonderful options of augmentation if we so choose, rhinoplasty, etc.  There's nothing wrong with it if it makes you feel better about yourself. If I had the money for breast augmentation, I'd have done it a long time ago!

FlexEffect can't change your genetic skeletal structure or cartilaginous tissue - of the nose for instance.  We can  build on or over what we have been blessed with - our own muscles and skin. But we can't physically change the structure of our noses - that's where the option for plastic surgery comes in and it's a good one. 

I see this program as being one which is not only a preventative for maintaining a youthful face, and rehabilitative program for atrophy and those who have suffered from Bells Palsy and Stroke, but also one that can work in conjunction/tandem with those who opt for plastic surgery for increased recovery time, better healing, and maintaining that which you've paid so much for.

Thank you so much for the wonderful compliment, I truly  appreciate it!

Keep flexing, this is THE best natural alternative to going under the knife that there is - can you tell how crazy I am about this program?  Oy vay,

All my best,
Olympia

Hi there Olympia

Thanks for your response. You do make FlexEffect sound really great. I am 41 with some sag but not excessive. Is there any hope for me then? I really don't want to go for plastic surgery, and I can't afford it anyway. If the sag isn't too bad, can I be restored to my former beauty?? Hopeful?!

By the way talking of breast augmentation, have you heard of The Bio Imagery Method of Breast Enlargement and Waist Reduction. I've got the book and intend to give it a go. It's a completely
natural method which sounds convincing. Thought you might be interested. If it works, it sounds a lot better than having falsies.

Thanks for your time

Shelia

Hey Sheila:

First, you're welcome.  At 41 with some sag - easy to fix.  Don't know if you have the video or manual as yet, if not, I highly recommend you go for it. Now's the best time to start - because you have only slight sag, and before anything really gives way, you can rehab the those areas AND those areas of your face not yet displaying atrophy. I know it will work for you.

No, haven't heard of the Bioimagery method - but if it works - tell me tell me tell me!   Can you explain a bit more about it?  Who is or are the authors? 

Thanks for the info, and get crackin' on your FlexEffect Program -and on the road to 41 and absolutely fabu!

All my best,
Olympia

Hi Olympia

Thanks a lot for all your encouragement. It means a lot. As for the book I was telling you about, if you go to www.breastenlargementvideo.com that should get you to the web site, and you can read what it says about the video and the book. I'm going to give it a go when I've finished breast feeding. My last resort!

Thanks again.

Sheila

Hi Olympia....You DO look wonderful!!!   I know someone is now going to ask this question:  What cosmeceuticals do you
use?

Jean     

Hi Jean:

Okay, here goes: Let me preface by saying that I alternate products (as all target and due different things) and I never layer one over another:

AM)  After Cleansing with Cetaphil:  I apply, either Cellex C Advanced Eye Serum and Face Serum, Cellex C Hydra B Complex Gel OR Skinbiology's CP Serum or Neova Eye Gel, and Neova Night Cream, and ALWAYS Peter Thomas Roth SPF 30 Titanium Dioxide sunblock (the only one eye can use - for extra sensitive skin- I get it, Cellex C, and Neova products through Dermadoctor.com)

PM)  After Cleansing with Cetaphil: I apply, Kinerase, or Renova or Hydron Skin Clarifier (around the eye area for exfoliation - as I have eczema and can not take the Renova around the eye area), alternate Skinbiology's Emu Oil with Co-Q10 or Vitamin E over Renova as needed.

Boy that looks like a lot and it is.  But as I said, they all have different "jobs" to do on and to the skin, as there is no one product that does it all.   I've followed Dr. Kunin's advice and do the alternating days and night, as to derive the aggregate and cumulative benefits of using these products over time.

Thanks for asking!

All my best,
Olympia :-)  

Re: Collagen injections Post # 843 Aug 6, 2000

I had them.....wasn't very happy because I think it left bumps that in the sunlight could be seen.........also had some in the outline of my upper lip.....can still see the injection sites...was back in April......plumpness is all gone now but can STILL see the injection sites on top lip....NEVER AGAIN...will build up lip area with the lip biting exercise....
Jayne

Collagen Injections   Aug 6, 2000

I am thinking of having collagen injections in the furrows around my mouth until I lift the area enough with the exercises.  I have had them in the past with some success but thought that the exercises might make the collagen be absorbed faster.  What are anyone's thoughts.

Connie  

Plastic Surgery   Aug 4, 2000

so say a person DID get a facelift...which i haven't but was just curious if any of you ladies out there have.would love to hear your results afterwards and has flexing helped also.....does FlexEffect enhance what has been done?....or just keep it looking fresh ?....
Jayne

Hi Jayne

I can't think of a time facialbuilding wouldn't be a benefit ... before or after surgery.
Before... to get back all you can on your own (firmness) making the tissue stronger and healthier promoting faster healing.     After... to maintain and give more shape (fullness).
Okay...anyone out there had surgery?  willing to talk?
Deb

Lost a lot of weight      July 3, 1999

I have recently lost  a lot of weight and the skin on my cheeks look 'crepey'...   What can be done about that?  Also, there are a lot of "crinkles" around my eyes.  I am 67 years old but look much younger except for this problem. Thanks.

Honey

Hi Honey

Anytime a considerable amount of weight is lost, there will be loose skin.   How fast/far this skin retracts depends greatly on ones age.   But never, and I mean never, fall for the thinking; "it's too late". Anytime you go after your body (fitness) you are sure to make improvements. Before any consideration of cosmetic surgery comes into play, first find out just how much lean mass/firm skin you can recover on your own.  I mention cosmetic surgery (even though you didn't)  because in the  minds of most people, it seems to be the magic bullet.  Believe me when I say, you have so much control over the condition of your face, if you'll just take it!  Thanks for the post

Deb

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